Obama on Marriage: "Attitudes Evolve, Including Mine"

When it comes to same-sex marriage, President Barack Obama acknowledged Wednesday that "attitudes evolve, including mine" during an interview with five progressive bloggers.

The president, who had not taken a single question from a representative of the LGBT media since being elected, was asked by Joe Sudbay of AmericaBlog.com and Gay.AmericaBlog.com about same-sex marriage, the constitutionality of "don't ask, don't tell," and his legislative strategy for ending the policy during the nearly hour-long sit-down.

On the question of marriage, President Obama began by clarifying that he wasn't going to "make big news" at that particular moment. But his answer gave the first indication that he might be rethinking what has so far been his unremitting support for civil unions ever since adopting that stance during his 2004 U.S. Senate bid.

"I have been to this point unwilling to sign on to same-sex marriage primarily because of my understandings of the traditional definitions of marriage," he said. "But I also think you're right that attitudes evolve, including mine. And I think that it is an issue that I wrestle with and think about because I have a whole host of friends who are in gay partnerships. I have staff members who are in committed, monogamous relationships, who are raising children, who are wonderful parents. And I care about them deeply. And so while I'm not prepared to reverse myself here, sitting in the Roosevelt Room at 3:30 in the afternoon, I think it's fair to say that it's something that I think a lot about. That's probably the best you'll do out of me today."

Sudbay -- who along with AmericaBlog founder John Aravosis avidly supported Obama on the blog during both the primary and general elections in 2008 -- began his questioning by relaying a sense of dissatisfaction among gay Americans over the lack of progress on LGBT issues under Obama's watch.

"You know, there is a certain amount of disillusionment and disappointment in our community right now," he said, "and one of the things I'd like to ask you -- and I think it's a simple yes or no question too -- is do you think that 'don't ask, don't tell' is unconstitutional?"

The president reiterated that he believes the policy is "wrong" and harms national security but declined to give his personal view on the constitutionality of the law, which is currently being defended by his Department of Justice.

"It's not a simple yes or no question," said Obama, "because I'm not sitting on the Supreme Court. And I've got to be careful, as president of the United States, to make sure that when I'm making pronouncements about laws that Congress passed I don't do so just off the top of my head."

The constitutional question has become a sore spot for the administration because the president has the power to instruct his Justice Department not to defend a law he believes to be unconstitutional. Obama has never affirmatively stated his position one way or the other, though he did tell CNN in 2009 that "it's not appropriate" for the executive branch to decline to defend a law that is constitutional.

The president told the bloggers the "best way" to change the law would be to overturn it legislatively and noted that he had lined up the support of Defense secretary Robert Gates and Joint Chiefs chairman Adm. Mike Mullen to that end.

Then he turned back to the disappointment of LGBT people.

"I guess my attitude is that we have been as vocal, as supportive of the LGBT community as any president in history. I've appointed more openly gay people to more positions in this government than any president in history. We have moved forward on a whole range of issues that were directly under my control, including, for example, hospital visitation," Obama said, adding that he had been "systematic and methodical" in trying to achieve DADT repeal given the "legal constraints."

"And so, I'll be honest with you, I don't think that the disillusionment is justified," he concluded.

Pressed by Sudbay on whether Gates would help with the push to pass "don't ask, don't tell" repeal before the end of the year, Obama said, "I'm not going to tip my hand," but added, "there is a strategy," and that he would need the help of the Log Cabin Republicans.

"I said directly to the Log Cabin Republican who was here yesterday, I said, that can't be that hard. Get me those votes," Obama said. The day before, the president had ducked in briefly to a meeting of a small group of LGBT advocates strategizing with White House aides about repeal during the lame-duck session of Congress after the election. Other than confirming the president's attendance, the White House and advocates alike have adhered to a strict code of silence about what was discussed.

Obama also marveled at LGBT activists' financing of the DADT lawsuit, and yet the inability of LGBT advocates to find the votes to pass repeal.

"You're financing a very successful, very effective legal strategy, and yet the only really thing you need to do is make sure that we get two to five Republican votes in the Senate," he said.

Other bloggers at the meeting included John Amato from Crooks & Liars, Duncan Black (Atrios) from EschatonBlog, Barbara Morrill (BarbinMD) from DailyKos, and Oliver Willis from OliverWillis.com.

Following are the excerpts of the LGBT portion of the official transcript:

Joe Sudbay: I was glad to hear that you and your staff appreciate constructive feedback.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, that's something we enjoy. (Laughter.)

Sudbay: We've been more than willing to offer that. We've certainly been more than willing to offer than from AMERICAblog, particularly on issues related to the LGBT community, which, you know, there is a certain amount of disillusionment and disappointment in our community right now.

And one of the things I'd like to ask you -- and I think it's a simple yes or no question too -- is do you think that "don't ask, don't tell" is unconstitutional?

THE PRESIDENT: It's not a simple yes or no question, because I'm not sitting on the Supreme Court. And I've got to be careful, as President of the United States, to make sure that when I'm making pronouncements about laws that Congress passed I don't do so just off the top of my head.

I think that -- but here's what I can say. I think "don't ask, don't tell" is wrong. I think it doesn't serve our national security, which is why I want it overturned. I think that the best way to overturn it is for Congress to act. In theory, we should be able to get 60 votes out of the Senate. The House has already passed it. And I've gotten the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to say that they think this policy needs to be overturned -- something that's unprecedented.

And so my hope and expectation is, is that we get this law passed. It is not just harmful to the brave men and women who are serving, and in some cases have been discharged unjustly, but it doesn't serve our interests -- and I speak as Commander-in-Chief on that issue.

Let me go to the larger issue, though, Joe, about disillusionment and disappointment. I guess my attitude is that we have been as vocal, as supportive of the LGBT community as any President in history. I've appointed more openly gay people to more positions in this government than any President in history. We have moved forward on a whole range of issues that were directly under my control, including, for example, hospital visitation.

On "don't ask, don't tell," I have been as systematic and methodical in trying to move that agenda forward as I could be given my legal constraints, given that Congress had explicitly passed a law designed to tie my hands on the issue.

And so, I'll be honest with you, I don't think that the disillusionment is justified.

Now, I say that as somebody who appreciates that the LGBT community very legitimately feels these issues in very personal terms. So it's not my place to counsel patience. One of my favorite pieces of literature is "Letter from Birmingham Jail," and Dr. King had to battle people counseling patience and time. And he rightly said that time is neutral. And things don't automatically get better unless people push to try to get things better.

So I don't begrudge the LGBT community pushing, but the flip side of it is that this notion somehow that this administration has been a source of disappointment to the LGBT community, as opposed to a stalwart ally of the LGBT community, I think is wrong.

----------------

Sudbay: So I have another gay question. (Laughter.)

THE PRESIDENT: It's okay, man. (Laughter.)

Sudbay: And this one is on the issue of marriage. Since you've become President, a lot has changed. More states have passed marriage equality laws. This summer a federal judge declared DOMA unconstitutional in two different cases. A judge in San Francisco declared Prop 8 was unconstitutional. And I know during the campaign you often said you thought marriage was the union between a man and a woman, and there -- like I said, when you look at public opinion polling, it's heading in the right direction. We've actually got Republicans like Ted Olson and even Ken Mehlman on our side now. So I just really want to know what is your position on same-sex marriage?

THE PRESIDENT: Joe, I do not intend to make big news sitting here with the five of you, as wonderful as you guys are. (Laughter.) But I'll say this --

Sudbay: I just want to say, I would be remiss if I didn't ask you this question.

THE PRESIDENT: Of course.

Sudbay: People in our community are really desperate to know.

THE PRESIDENT: I think it's a fair question to ask. I think that -- I am a strong supporter of civil unions. As you say, I have been to this point unwilling to sign on to same-sex marriage primarily because of my understandings of the traditional definitions of marriage.

But I also think you're right that attitudes evolve, including mine. And I think that it is an issue that I wrestle with and think about because I have a whole host of friends who are in gay partnerships. I have staff members who are in committed, monogamous relationships, who are raising children, who are wonderful parents.

And I care about them deeply. And so while I'm not prepared to reverse myself here, sitting in the Roosevelt Room at 3:30 in the afternoon, I think it's fair to say that it's something that I think a lot about. That's probably the best you'll do out of me today. (Laughter.)

Sudbay: It is an important issue, and I think that --

THE PRESIDENT: I think it's an entirely fair question to ask.

Sudbay: And part of it is that you can't be equal in this country if the very core of who you are as a person and the love -- the person you love is not -- if that relationship isn't the same as everybody else's, then we're not equal. And I think that a lot of -- particularly in the wake of the California election on Prop 8, a lot of gay people realized we're not equal. And I think that that's -- that's been part of the change in the --

THE PRESIDENT: Prop 8, which I opposed.

Sudbay: Right. I remember you did. You sent the letter and that was great. I think that the level of intensity in the LGBT community changed after we lost rights in that election. And I think that's a lot of where the community is right now.

THE PRESIDENT: The one thing I will say today is I think it's pretty clear where the trendlines are going.

Sudbay: The arc of history.

THE PRESIDENT: The arc of history. Anything else?

Sudbay: Well, can I ask you just about "don't ask, don't tell," just following up? (Laughter.) I just want to follow up. Because you mentioned it -

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, sure. Go ahead.

Sudbay: Is there a strategy for the lame-duck session to --

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

Sudbay: -- and you're going to be involved?

THE PRESIDENT: Yes.

Sudbay: Will Secretary Gates be involved?

THE PRESIDENT: I'm not going to tip my hand now. But there is a strategy.

Sudbay: Okay.

THE PRESIDENT: And, look, as I said --

Sudbay: Can we call it a secret plan? (Laughter.)

THE PRESIDENT: I was very deliberate in working with the Pentagon so that I've got the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs being very clear about the need to end this policy. That is part of a strategy that I have been pursuing since I came into office. And my hope is that will culminate in getting this thing overturned before the end of the year.

Now, as usual, I need 60 votes. So I think that, Joe, the folks that you need to be having a really good conversation with -- and I had that conversation with them directly yesterday, but you may have more influence than I do -- is making sure that all those Log Cabin Republicans who helped to finance this lawsuit and who feel about this issue so passionately are working the handful of Republicans that we need to get this thing done.

Sudbay: Yes, I don't have that relationship with them. (Laughter.)

THE PRESIDENT: But, I mean, it's just -- I don't understand the logic of it.

Sudbay: Nor do I.

THE PRESIDENT: You're financing a very successful, very effective legal strategy, and yet the only really thing you need to do is make sure that we get two to five Republican votes in the Senate.

And I said directly to the Log Cabin Republican who was here yesterday, I said, that can't be that hard. Get me those votes.

Because what I do anticipate is that John McCain and maybe some others will filibuster this issue, and we're going to have to have a cloture vote. If we can get through that cloture vote, this is done.