Mattilda Bernstein Sycamore and Sassafras Lowrey Discuss the Queer Margins
BY Diane Anderson-Minshall
October 14 2012 11:54 AM ET
Sycamore: As queer writers who make work that isn't considered part of the â€śmainstream,â€ť whether that be the straight or gay mainstream, often we're told that we have to justify our existence and explain how we got to this awfully strange place. In Roving Pack you dispense with those conventions in subtle ways. For example, the narrator, Click, talks about how itâ€™s weird to meet someone who isnâ€™t pierced or how itâ€™s bizarre when someone likes their parents. You bring us right into this world of transmasculine queer punk kids in Portland in the early 2000s â€” you shift the center instead of speaking to an imagined mainstream.
Lowrey: I think for me it was about really wanting the work that I do to be within and for the communities that I come from, the communities that Iâ€™m in or have been in. Iâ€™m not going to hold your hand. I want this book to be with and for folks who spend so much of our time explaining ourselves and our lives and our worlds and our bodies to other people that we shouldnâ€™t have to do that in the books that we read. There can be this portrayal of our lives that doesnâ€™t have to apologize or explain or fall into the role of 101 community educator.
Sycamore: I actually think that people relate more when things arenâ€™t explicated in a very careful and cautious way, where instead you have to enter on the terms of the narrator or the characters or the writers and editors of a particular book.
Lowrey: Yeah exactly. I think thatâ€™s why Iâ€™ve always resonated so much with your books and certainly with Why Are Faggots So Afraid of Faggots. Your work is so in-your-face. I mean just in the title, let alone once people get into it. Itâ€™s a very similar connection of not being apologetic, which I feel sometimes that education moment becomes. Almost like â€śIâ€™m so sorry my world is so confusing or weird here, let me help you figure it out.â€ť
Sycamore: Exactly. I see Why Are Faggots So Afraid of Faggots as an emergency intervention. Gay sexual/social culture has become obsessed with policing the borders rather than fluidity or experimentation or flamboyance or camaraderie. Things like â€śno femmes or fattiesâ€ť or â€śHIV-negative onlyâ€ť or â€śno blacks or Asiansâ€ť are unquestioned preferences in gay male cruising arenas. In some ways gay culture has become a refuge for really reactionary, backwards misogyny and femmephobia and body fascism and ageism and racism and all the most horrible things but they are deified and considered oh so hot and manly! With Why Are Faggots So Afraid of Faggots I want to investigate and explode those norms and also reinvoke the original visions of gay liberation, which were about an end to the nuclear family and organized religion and police control over queer bodies and lives. And also to explore the places where we fail.
Lowrey: Roving Pack is in many ways ultimately about the failure that we as queer folks, and as queer folks on the margins, do the best we can to take care of ourselves and one another and there's a lot of beauty and strength and survival in that. And then ultimately we often times fail each other too, and fail ourselves, and that was one of the themes that came out really early in Roving Pack that I hadnâ€™t anticipated: the failure of community and, paradoxically, community being the stronghold and the only thing youâ€™ve got.
Sycamore: I think thereâ€™s so much rhetoric in gay establishment circles or in LGBT nonprofit worlds around this kind of â€śshiny happy peopleâ€ť version of gay or LGBT or even queer success, and this camouflages a lot of violence and leaves a lot of people hopeless. In Why Are Faggots So Afraid of Faggots I really want to explore all these failures, whether personal or communal, in terms of negotiating safer sex or finding people you can relate to in prison or on the street while turning tricks or in bed with a new lover or while trying to avoid getting deported, all those intersections. Weâ€™re never going to get anywhere if we canâ€™t explore and negotiate our contradictions with a raw sense of vulnerability.
Lowrey: Right! And nobody wants to hear that. We can pretend that weâ€™ve got this stuff figured out and weâ€™re in this queer utopia and itâ€™s all wonderful. We can invent our own identities and create our lives, but itâ€™s also not nearly so perfect as I think many folks would like us to believe. Iâ€™m definitely bracing for people, especially some trans folks, to be very angry about the way in which I portray a trans character whose gender is not nearly settled and who has a lot of ongoing community pressure to settle somewhere. I think people get really uneasy, and thatâ€™s one of the things Iâ€™m always so grateful for in your books, you call it like it is.
Sycamore: Yes, how do we get beyond the limitations of â€śIt Gets Betterâ€ť cheerleading to name and claim a faggotry that challenges norms of behavior rather than obsessing over them? In Roving Pack, the narrator Click decides to shoot testosterone because the person Click is dating, a trans fag, is uncomfortable with the possibility that other queers might think he's dating a lesbian. It's so brave that you're exploring places where peer pressure becomes internalized so that self-expression ends up becoming almost impossible or at least conflicted.
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